/warp casino discussion thread

After reading the whole thread I revise my statement above:


This warp is a crap idea, ruins the game, has the potential ruin kids future lives. It should be removed immediately.

whoever thought of this should receive disciplinary action.

 

I haven't read through most of the discussion yet starting from last night, but I do have to agree with some of the players opinion's against this warp, especially Drogo's. At first I was fine with the warp and such, but after hearing more information and examples of how this warp is a bad example, I do have to agree with those points.

So far, I've had a few players directed to /warp casino needing help building a casino, which is making the warp a tutorial for anyone building it and not just an "example". It includes signs on the droppers, explaining what to put in those droppers and how the droppers function, as well as full access to the redstone area. The players did not know what items to put in what odds, and had to confirm with me what items would suit best for their odds as they had no clue. I can guarantee these players will not know about taking their profits out of their chest, how to stock your casino, stocking the (stone) chest, values of items in odds, changing odds, adding more slots, and there are a few more issues going along with this.

In my personal opinion, either the warp needs to be totally removed, or if the warp is here to stay, there should be a large portion of additional information about casinos in general, including the risks and a message stating that Skyblock does not promote this type of gambling, as that is an opinion from some players at the moment on how this is shown across the server.

The warp only promotes more scams and not fully legitimate casinos, as a very large portions of active casinos were built by players who knew their redstone and casino builds.

 

Noobcrew, I know you want to keep the server entertaining for your players but I really think you should consider the risks of that entertainment being gambling in any form.
I could quote stats about problem gambling in children but anyone can google that and they will find that it’s not good.
But there’s not only the risk to children but risk to yourself as well. I know that Mojang and Microsoft have been lax in enforcing their EULA and if they ever do, they will likely enforce it across all servers and not single any one server out.
But in all honesty, I can see the day where some problem gambler files a law suit against a gaming service provider that first introduced them to gambling when they were a child. Any case would only be strengthened if that provider had violated any EULA explicitly prohibiting it.
Now that might never happen, but it’s certainly not a risk that I would take.

 

"Proceeds to reply to another 4 posts" lol

 

Yeah. Couldn’t help myself.

 

I would like to just add my thoughts to this thread. Casino's have been a part of this server for a long time, and almost every advertisement has the word "casino" somewhere in the name. The biggest problem on the server at this moment is that there are basically 3 different sorts of casino's; the ones shown at the casino section of info. Only myself and Grepatue have really built anything more. In my opinion the warp will help people start with a simple casino and then maybe one or two will try to built anything more. This will make the whole of the casino economy much more competitive and it may revitalise it and make people actually think when making casino's. In other words, the warp is fine. Not everything is perfect, but let people experiment and enjoy learning and building redstone while making a bit of grass along the way.

Edit: Oh, and don't complain about your profits. You are probably rich enough already.

 

This and that, let's all just come up with one thing.
Before this post gets serious, I want to state I am neutral.​

"This thread is to discuss the new warp casino as there was quite a few complaints and issues brought up," says Krissy.

"Discuss" does not mean to continuously argue over the same thing. Everyone picking their own side for what they believe is best for the new warp is just lame.

Statement: "I would like to mention that warp casino was never meant as a tutorial. It was named “Casino Examples” for a reason. It is simply meant to show that a casino is a lot more than a few droppers and pieces of red stone dust. It gives a simple explanation for the reasoning behind each part, and is not in any way a full tutorial. That’s why it wasn’t detailed, and some signs are vague," says Novembree.

For: Allow me to clarify on this. The proper intention of creating a warp based on the creation of casinos for new players was to help them make income and try to exclude them farming weeks straight with /daily and /vote just to afford the basic essentials to help their island. "Examples" directly at the beginning of the warp should indicate that these are just casino templates of how to make one and not how to make the best one on the entire server. In this quote, Novembree explains that casino redstone is not as simple as just copying one from a template. Just because this warp was done by moderators, does not necessarily mean this was 100% accurate for everything. And I'm referring to lowest redstone/space usage, quick and easy build setup, etc. Last time I checked, Novembree is not Grepatue or any other proficient redstone artists so the community should not backlash her and other moderators just because they aren't number one in redstone knowledge on this platform. To further prove that this was no way at all a complete tutorial of casino help, it is clear that this was a rushed project because of the error in the odds for the legendary dropper in the 3 dropper casino (1/721 not 1/729). Also, this can possibly prove more that Novembree and other moderators who worked on this project aren't top tier casino makers. Don't believe me for this if you don't want to but, as I've island hopped around low coordinates, I saw an island that hasn't been touched in 3+ years. This island included a functional casino. This can possibly prove casinos go way back to even the point where people have forgotten the first creator of it. Because of this, moderators are unable to provide any proper credits to who brought casinos to this server first. And no, I am not saying moderators don't want to credit the original owner, but more of that they cannot credit the right person.

Against: The casino warp is somewhat of an embarrassment to the staff team's effort in work. Incorrect legendary odds after a few days of publishment, and even after mentions of it not resolving the issue at an earlier time contributes to my claim. Also, speaking with my own experience, casinos do not 100% guarantee profit. And I know dozens of others can agree. Imagine a new player shows up to Skyblock and begins playing for a few days. And then as they visit other islands, they see something continuously popping up, a casino. And the owner may say something along the lines of "wow, my casino made me a DC of grass today only!" Which may misinterpret the way the new player thinks of how casinos work. They may use /warp casino and create their own and after a few days of it being ran, they realize that they've only lost grass, and are now bankrupt and possibly eventually end up quitting this server. Now, this may not be a major problem but, if the template says legendary is 1/721 in odds, that may make a new player not want to make that type of casino, even just by 8 odds it could happen even if its not likely. And, this can confuse a player if they start counting their odds on their own and it not matching up with 1/721. Lastly, there are no signs saying what items should be in specific prize droppers. What if a greenie makes a casino and all, just to be confused on what prizes go where. Yes, they can ask someone or check another casino but that wouldn't be formal.

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KhalDrogo 's Post: "The following line is copied from the Minecraft commercial usage guidelines.

all servers, entitlements, and advertising are suitable for children and minors (i.e., no gambling, pornography, etc.) and don’t harm the Brand."

My response: I'm not 100% sure if you completely understand the difference between IRL gambling and gambling online through the use of in-game currency that cannot be legally distributed back to real dollars. Drogo is not surprised because casinos have been around for several years on this server, and possibly other servers too, and they've been increasing the rate of in-game-item gamblers and casino creators on this server. Virtual non-USD casinos influence players to gamble more online which isn't a bad thing because they know it isn't real world money, and it does not interest them in real life gambling because of the following reason: kids dominate this server, and probably all of them are not multi millionaires who wish to become billionaires through the use of gambling in the real world. And, after they lose majority of the time from minecraft casinos, it will teach them they shouldn't risk their bank account in the future just to double it or quadruple it by gambling in real life.

Grepatue 's Post: "That and some of the redstone is incorrectly explained. With some redstone not explained whatsoever. Glad they felt it was a good idea to showcase stuff they can’t even explain."

My response: I support this post. However, the required redstone is explained. The signs near the casino shop chest explains that it has space to collect stone and space to collect grass. The signs inside the redstone units tell the player that stone should be supplied in specific dispensers and that one specific dispenser should only have one stone. In the dispensers consisting of odds, it says one unstackable item and 8 different stackables. In a furnace, it says to put 16 items to prevent stackables from giving the prize. All of this to me explains the proper functions of the three basic types of casinos. A 1/9 casino, a 3 dropper casino, and a tower casino. To improve your point, some details not explained are how the amount of stackables/unstackables in the odds dispenser will change the odds of the slot.

Xstevey 's Post: "Also adding to these 2 smarta$$es above me, having every single new player building a casino will ruin the economy will it not? It will also be a waste of their time and items/grass. idk if what im saying makes sense but you get the point."

My response: Every single player on this server will not make a casino because 1. some get lazy and only desire to make fast profit that doesn't require a difficult task like making a casino on their own. And, I'm more than sure that more than 95% of greenies cannot pay someone enough grass to build them a casino, even just one slot. 2. After a few weeks or even days, this warp won't be as popular as now. And I haven't seen every greenie advertising a casino so therefore, this will not ruin the server's economy. Yes it may waste some greenies' grass but I feel like a moderator will add a few signs including the risks of running a casino so that too will stop everyone from making a casino. Also, even if a casino is on majority of islands, that won't ruin the server's economy. Grass bounces back from player to player, just like normal. Not everyone gambles and some people do, but most of the time it isn't much. So if grass bounces from player to player more rapidly (which probably won't happen), it won't decrease the amount of value one grass block contains.

Boarder 's Post: After all every new player has to decide for himself in which way he wants to earn his grass, I think its good to show basic redstone (if the creators are credited) because it takes away the possibility for people to steal basic designs and sell them all over the server. For advanced and more unique designs, which will eventually become more and more important when everyone has a 3slot, you can hit up some pros.

My response: I completely agree! Every player has their own way of making grass. If free casino templates are provided, they can easily make their own casino to make some dough. If you're talking about the first casino creators to be credited, I do not think that is possible but if you mean about the warp and which moderators built it, that is able to be done. Some people make casinos for others to make some grass, but those people are already popular and can make grass another way easily. For example, Grepatue. He has a bunch of casinos that supply him with grass. I feel like it may cause a dent in casino builders' money, but not a super important one. And to add to this, there are way more possible casino builds other than a tower casino, 1 slot and 3 slot.

archerexpert777 's Post: yeah ruin the economy of s*** casinos lol. Can't wait to play a stack of grass for 50 wood planks in a 1/81 casino

My response: I'm more than sure that a casino won't be on every single island you visit. Obviously some casinos will have poor prizes because a greenie doesn't always have spawners and hatched chickys, and all that. But the thing is, you're not being forced to gamble. If there aren't signs stating the prizes, you should use your common sense and not gamble there. But I do see where you're getting. There aren't signs telling the player what prizes are recommended in certain slots, it only says the odds.

Grepatue 's Post: Last restock we actually had to pull grass from our pockets because the casinos didn’t make enough to even pay for the prizes that paid out, so I think my statement was fair. Also never knew I’d agree with ya so much in one thread heh.

My response: That is fair game, Grep. You out of anyone would know how casinos work and the risks of running one, if not multiple. You didn't have to pull grass from your pockets, it was previous profit that you spent on items with it. And that profit amount changes from up to down, based off of if the gambler is lucky or not.

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My conclusion:

/Warp casino is a good thing and bad thing. There are no signs to tell a greenie that a casino doesn't always give you profit and the risks of them running one. It is a good thing though because it shows the most popular way of making grass on the server. I feel like if the arguing stops here and moderators listen to what is best, /warp casino will be 100% useful. I do not think it is necessary for a redstone professional to build a casino on a warp just so new players can have the easiest time making one. Personally, I think it is already pretty simple. A few screenshots and some time doesn't seem like a big thing. But, it's also a bad thing because moderators rushed it due to lack of proper information like the odds for legendary in the three slot casino, or not stating why you should think twice before wanting to make a casino. Both sides half their ups and downs, but I hope moderators add signs stating the risks of running a casino in the warp, and prizes that are recommended for each slot.​

 

Good effort on your well thought out and articulated input.

I just want to point out that I never looked to differentiate IRL gambling and online gambling. My issue has always been with gambling full stop and as you have used the term for both instances, we agree that they are both gambling.

Studies have shown that loot boxes in games have lead to children developing real life gambling problems. This can't be ignored.

I know this thread is to discuss "/warp casino", or as it is now, "/warp info and walk a little", but as my issue with it is gambling in general, I feel it relevant to look at all forms of gambling in game, such are the "lucky crates",
where gambling with real money does occur, and this is my opinion and I know others may think differently, this happens every day on the server by way of crate keys.


Note: This screen shot was taken at the time of writing, so not taken selectively.

This is real money being spent in the hope of winning virtual items. If players were able to insert real money straight into the 'lucky crates' most people would likely agree, the fact that there is some virtual key in the middle makes no difference as far as I'm concerned. If these players were unfortunate enough to win a legendary pot or, grass or iron, or a disguise they all ready have, anything they consider worth less than the real cash they have gambled, they would feel the pain of having lost that money. If they do well and win the high valued items, then they will feel that sense of euphoria that people get when gambling with real money. That feeling that can lead to problem gambling.

 

Well drogo, you should actually differentiate between IRL gambling and in-game currency gambling because clearly minecraft does differenciate them and only cares about the earlier. Theres no way to convert the prizes from any of the crates back into IRL currency and theres free ways of obtaining them like voter keys.

Let me explain, as even noobcrew himself mentioned you "We have already spoke with Microsoft and had no issues with passing on the EULA." so any of your arguments against casinos as they currently are in the server cant be based on a EULA breach.

You could also argue that people support your point, but i think its clear that casinos are way more popular here that your way of thinking, so democracy wouldnt support your point neither.

Anything else is just your own personal morals, you cant come here and suggest we limit the players liberties and disable vanilla features just because your own personal morals told you to, thats ludicrous, even more when its far from the topic of /warp casino.

If you dont like gambling that much maybe you dont like this server neither then, because casinos are not only one of the biggest economies in the server by far, they are a essential part of what constitutes the server's experience and community.

Also i reccomend to make your own forum post about the topic or try to change microsofts politics intead, because as i explained, you dont have any real point to change something aside from your own personal opinion. Moralistic arguments are nothing but futile when democracy says otherwise.

 

Thanks for coming back on this. Good to know there is no violation of the EULA.
It’s possibly obvious to all that my concern isn’t really a legal one but a moral one.
I’d used the EULA as an arguing point as the last time I raised concerns of a moral nature every staff member shot it down.
Sadly, I felt taking the approach I did, might be more successful than appealing to peoples good nature alone.

I really do think we will see the day where someone sues a gaming provider for introducing them to gambling as a child but given Microsoft’s being ok with it, they may well be the target of that.

As I’ve mentioned to Noobcrew, my issue is more of a moral nature. I’d gone down the path of highlight the EULA because it seems that some people’s morals differ too much from mine and for some people, they seem to not exist at all.

I know the difference between in game gambling and IRL gambling, but I won’t ignore that the former, too often, leads to the later.

As for my coming here and making arguments based on my moral standings, of course I can do that and it is far from futile. This democracy that is so pro casino, that you speak of, consists of many children, children that don’t really understand the dangers behind gambling. I don’t believe their say should be a telling factor in this, just as it isn’t when it comes to drinking, smoking, etc.

Microsoft and the operators of this server are the ones that decide what is permitted in game. They take input from the community sure, but in the end they make the decisions, not the majority.

How many suggestions do you see on this server with majority support that don’t get implemented? Plenty.

This is not a democracy as you seem to think it is.

Additionally, given there appears to be no legal issue and the only negative effect is the potential for kids to develop poor gambling habits, the decision is one of morals….. and $’s

 

sorry but questioning the existance of morals is not an argument, is a personal attack to whoever you imply since the way you phrase it limits it to someone in this debate, please stop using insults as arguments.

I never said this server was a democracy, i said it could be an actuall way to backup your argument since as you said, something being supported broadly is one of the things the staff team considers.

And sorry but your personal morals are in fact futile as arguments when you suggest to change something in the server without the least consideration or suggestions on the repercutions that your suggestion may cause, subject that i have talked a lot about, your suggestion only would increase moderating work to the staff team, take out crates and with them valuable revenue used to maintain the server itself, limit vanilla features and the liberties of the players, utterly destroy one of the biggest economies in the server leading to inflation, and stablish a rule thats almost imposible to police (do you really think players will just stop gambling in game when its so popular and dropping items isnt logged? do you even know how many randomizers there are in minecraft that arent automatic?) and all for a rule thats moralistic, democratically unpopular, and that no one but a small minority cares, nor microsofth, nor the community, nor the staff team shares your opinion and it has been explained to great detail, as ive said, maybe what you dont like is minecraft or this server because you want it or not this kind of in-game casinos are an accepted part of the game and server, believe me, im pretty sure minecraft is aware of randomizers when the last mob vote we had the copper golem as one option, a litteral randomizer, so yes, futile.

I strongly emphasize the importance of taking history in account when suggesting changes to the way a community functions, what you suggest, using morals to stablish rules, has happened before and brought nothing but tragedy, to continue my example of the prohibition, when alcohol was outlawed in the US for moralistic reasons the law broke the country's society, economy and only served to increase drinking and crime rate, and at the end of the day the alcohol laws were so worthless for its moralistic nature and broad unpopularity that even with them being a constitutional ammendment, Al Capone, the biggest alcohol gangster, could only be convicted for tax evation.

I want to add that suggesting something so consecuential after all the leading parties (microsoft, staff and the communities general opinion) had expressed a clear dissagreement is nothing but tyrannical, in its very core concept given by the romans, assuming authority you dont own, with the way you expect your own morals to be used as logic without regard for others freedom, even more when considering you completelly changed the topic from the warp to your own personal agenda.

Also "How many suggestions do you see on this server with majority support that don’t get implemented? Plenty." is a litterary falacy since popular suggestions not being implemented does not imply in any way that a unpopular opinion is any better.

 

Have you ever lost $7,000 USD by clicking one button? I have. CS:GO gambling in this instance coin flipping that’s the real problem. CS:GO gambling.
Valve please fix

 

What you lack in intelligence, you certainly make up for in ability to produce copious amounts of drivel. If an argument could be won on word count alone then you’d certainly have me beat.

 

Drogo I know we used to not like each other but I can now proudly say I love your wisdom and enjoy how no matter the person you try your very hardest to talk sense to them even though it falls on deaf ears.

 

I do try but as they say, There are none so blind as those who will not see.

I’ll admit, I have clashed with people in the past, often those with equally strong opinions but essentially people not too dissimilar to me. People who on any other day I’d enjoy a good chat with. This is not one of those people.

 

My goodness, I didn't even want to comment again at all but nah this is too funny I can't help myself

Never in my life have I heard a comparison between skyblock and 1940s gangster run New York city, that's new levels of metaphors even for me.

This whole argument is quite hypocritical considering you're throwing around accusations of "fallacies" and how Drogo won't stay on topic yet even responding to his points (which are entirely on topic) is fallacy in itself considering now you're entirely off topic. Don't just start throwing random philosophy into arguments for the sake of it, it very rarely is a logical response in debates. As an FYI, a "fallacy fallacy" also exists which seems to me what is currently happening. Actually properly use fallacies in your argument if you're going to do it, don't throw them around if you can't even stop yourself from doing them.

The entire point of the discussion is for a warp involving casinos, Drogo is discussing his point that there should be NO casinos advertised on the server whatsoever, which is very much within the discussion. Discussions are allowed to have multiple branches of ideas that relate to the original topic believe it or not lol, that's the whole point of discussing. Something else to point out briefly is that believe it or not, morals are going to influence every decision or opinion you have whether you like it or not. Saying to just focus on "logical" decisions is quite frankly inhuman, they both go hand in hand with each other.



For my actual opinion on the thread, I do not think any server should be advertising casinos and actively promoting it. Addictions and bad influence come from any place you could imagine, especially games kids are playing for hours on end. Now are a lot of kids going to come out of skyblock with raging instincts to go lose all of their money, no probably not, but that doesn't mean it isn't possible. You don't even realize the addictions or habits you can have until they slowly grow overtime, I've watched it in myself and many others.

If the EULA is passed even when casinos are actively part of the server, then it's still very much ok to discuss the opinion that the server doesn't need to be promoting gambling. What's important to understand here is that gambling does not equal randomization or chance. Gambling involves risk of losing everything you offer in hopes of getting something better (this is by definition the intent of gambling since textbook definitions are apparently important in this thread). It's not even accurate to compare the casinos to random acts of chance that don't even have an aspect of risk whatsoever.

One last point is that just because the server may be in alignment with guidelines, doesn't mean it can't have it's own set of rules defining what's ok to do. It really would not be the end of the world to disallow casinos. If what you care about is the economy, then you'll be just fine. The server has been here for years long before casinos even existed and I think you'll all survive having to work harder to earn your money without making the majority of people lose their money so you can profit (this point is not arguable just to be clear, if prizes in a casino are worth less then the amount of turns it takes to win the reward then eventually you will always profit and the majority of people will lose.)

Tbh, it's disappointing how little people can actually have normal conversations without being driven by stubbornness and arrogance within their own arguments, but hey that's life folks. That's all from me, you all can get back to your regularly scheduled programs now : )

 

Well said Calidre. I’m going to have to go make a suggestion that we be permitted to give a post more than one positive rating.

 

calidre was once running many casinos before his untimely banning. #BanCasinos #UnbanCalidre #CalidreTheMobster #Blessed #LivingLifeLikeLarry

 

I Wish to one day see a verbal 1 vs. 1 of Drogo and Skam. They're both very good with words.