Economy Crop hopper fix

Discussion in 'Server Gameplay Suggestions' started by DanielDH, Apr 11, 2021.

  1. DanielDH
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    DanielDH New Member

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    I was recently doing some tests and realized that since crop hoppers go off of a second system with how many items are allowed, that if more than 3 items grow at once, the other will be deleted, for example with pumpkins, there's a 0.21 chance every second for a pumpkin to grow each chunk layer, now the chances of 4 growing at the same time, meaning one will be deleted by the crop hopper, is 0.002 per second, or 1 pumpkin every 100 seconds, or 13 stacks a day, lost and deleted, even tho on average it makes 0.21 a second, Not 3 a second, it still loses, and everysingle layer on top of that compounds the formula, for example my 10 layer farm should make an average of 1 pumpkin per second, 1 per second, so the crop hopper should handle it, but since sometimes 4 might grow at the same time, you actually lose 1.024 pumpkins everysingle second!!!! Or 25 doublechests everyday.... Again, the crop hopper says 3 per second, and the farm makes 1 per second. It's a complete loss even if you did a single layer per chunk. My suggestion is to change how the crop hoppers work, instead of 3 per second it should be 90 per minute, on average still only takes in 3 per second, so it's no more advantageous, but the loss rate will dramatically decrease becuase it will handle the odd time 4 grow in a single second, but the next could only grow 1, and if it reaches 90 before a minute it can delete the rest till the next minute starts. You can still say the hopper takes 3 per second, but just change how the deletion system works. I hope this made sense and was helpful.

    The formula for the loss rate is 0.002 per second each layer, then it's 0.002 to the power of x amount of layers, for example 0.002 to the power of 5 (5 layers) is 3.2, or on average one pumpkin is lost every 3.2 seconds with a 5 later design.
     
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  2. Calidre
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    Calidre Experienced Member

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    Ok so first of all, most of your math here doesn`t even make any sense. Let me go through this step by step and I`m only going to base it off of your numbers and not do my own calculations

    Going by your number of 0.002 per second, first of all that is 1 every 500 seconds and not every 100 seconds, or 172.8 Pumpkins lost every 24 hours, which isn`t even 3 stacks. Your number of 1.024 pumpkins a second isn`t even accurate because if you`re using the same calculations the amount would be the exact same at 0.002 per second. You`re throwing out random numbers at this point.

    The cropper can grab up to 3 pumpkins per second, and so until you reach the maximum growth rate in a chunk of 3 per second or higher, it won`t have a very high deletion rate. Your farm probably only makes 1 per second, because well, you only have enough stems for their to be an average of 1 pumpkin grown per second. Also, 90 per minute is cutting the entire collection in half to 1.5 per second. The average will not be equal to 3 per second and there isn`t even a way I`m assuming to make the collection system run per minute, because Minecraft itself runs on a tick based system closer to that of a second.

    Last, the formula doesn`t even make sense and even if it did 0.002 to the power of 5 is not 3.2, its 3.2 times 10 to the power of -14 which most definitely not 3.2 seconds.

    Putting specific math aside, the deletion rate is insanely low compared to the actual income you receive from the farms themselves. They were a major increase from pumpkin farms with severely reduced lag and way more income from easier building capability. Top players are making millions from the farms themselves and the deletion rate is almost pointless for most players. Given a full 5x5 chunk area of max 3 per second cropper capacity, you`re looking at 75 per second, 4,500 a minute, 270,000 an hour or 6,480,000 per 24 hours. With the 24 hours number, that`s $5,767,200 a day. That is an insane amount. Even if the farm was going to be only 1 max layer at full speed of 3 per second, that`s $230,688 a day. The deletion rate is fine as is and doesn`t need to be changed if you compare to the actual amount of income people are making from it
     
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  3. DanielDH
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    DanielDH New Member

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    Oh well maybe my math itself is off but real world tests, I did 5 mins 10 times for my one layer farm and my 10 layer farm, and on average the single layer made 1 stack, and the 10 layers made 7 stacks, now I honestly can't explain how I'm making 7 times more when there's 10 layers and my farm doesn't make over 3 per second, just doesn't make any sense and if I am losing that from deletion that's 16 double chests a day..... Or 43 thousand a day, if you ask me that's more than "insanely low", and tigerlord600 made a flat one layer farm with multiple crop hoppers and it made exactly what it should, with the same amount of chunks and same design as mine, so? I'm just imagining them dissapearing?
     
  4. Calidre
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    Calidre Experienced Member

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    You should do more than a 5 minute test, at least 10 or 15. But that makes sense. Adding one layer to your farm does not immediately double it, and adding 2 layers will not triple it. It doesn`t work in a linear line. There is still a % chance of it grabbing a pumpkin from a layer, and adding a layer only increases those chances, it doesn`t double the exact amount because pumpkins will NOT all grow at the same speed. 10 layers doesn`t make it 10x more efficient, it just increases the average amount of pumpkins that will be sent to the crop hopper. The amount of pumkins you make will fluctuate but if you did 30 minute tests say, it would more or less average out.

    Even if the deletion rate right now could be totally improved, it`s basically the same as increasing the rate per second as you`re still gaining extra pumpkins that would have otherwise been lost. The same answer applies here, the amount of money that people are already making from cropper farms is insanely high and even if the actual mechanics themselves could be improved, it would make the income from the already high farms, way higher. We don`t need an increase in pumpkin flow as the crop hoppers themselves already make tremendous amounts of money
     
  5. DanielDH
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    DanielDH New Member

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    Sure but the point is that people are unaware that you can spend time and money increasing a farm when if you made a flat one 5 long instead of 5 tall you make way more, also I didn't just average out numbers that were widely inconsistent, literally everysingle 5 minute test was off by 0-10 pumpkins, it was never 5 stacks then 9, always always 7 for the 10 layer and 1 for the single layer. Otherwise I would agree that over time it averages out, but it doesn't, and when I afk and then come back, my 10 layer will have 7 double chest and my single will have 1, it's not that it's losing them and I'm not making money, it's that without realizing it you should be making 10 chunk 1 layer farms and it would make 10 times the amount of a single layer. Again, ask and see tigerlords farm, with the same size he does make 10x the ammount, so they are being lost to deletion since everysingle layer you add adds the chance of 4 growing at the same time, even if it's not 3 per second on average.
     
  6. Calidre
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    Calidre Experienced Member

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    Yes at the start, having multiple chunk farms is more profitable than having a large one I`ve had this discussion with some other people when they were first introduced. But when you build your farm up to the point where it`s reaching the 3 per second limit or going passed that, it evens out. At the beginning, it`s better to have multiple chunks, but that also makes harder storage for them. But if you are planning on increasing the farm to a large number, the two ways of building it, the pumpkins will slowly stat to even out the closer you get to the limits of the crop hopper in take
     
  7. DanielDH
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    DanielDH New Member

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    So if I make a 20 tall farm let's say I will on average make 20x more than a single layer? Or what's the point that it evens out?
     
  8. Calidre
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    Calidre Experienced Member

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    I`m not the one to ask about specific numbers as I haven`t done most of the calculations myself, but there`s a way to figure out the max layers you can have in one chunk before the profit you make per layer hits 0 zero because it surpasses the limit of 3 per chunk.

    But so this should make sense to you. Having 2 chunks will double the amount of pumpkins because there is 2 crop hoppers and 2 layers which average about the same therefore doubling the pumkins. 2 layers in 1 chunk however does not double production because there is still only 1 crop hopper doing the work, I`m not sure of the calculations, but it will only increase the production in a smaller amount because it`s adding onto the current layer whereas two layers will create double. There is a middle point however where once you hit a certain amount of layers the production will be the same as a player can only load chunks in a 5x5 chunk area at maximum
     
  9. DanielDH
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    DanielDH New Member

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    To be honest that doesn't make sense to me lol, becuase sure it's one crop hopper doing the work, but since it would take in everything until it reaches 3 per second then it should still double since each layer is making the same amount, and if you mean it only increases it since sometimes 4 grow at the same time, and one gets deleted, then that's the whole issue, imo it shouldnt matter how many layers you make it should constantly be consistent with the amount, it doesn't make sense to have it work that way. And honestly it's a new thing, I don't think it's perfect and just becuase you make alot of money or its "better" than before doesn't mean it can't be improved, and I think this is proof of that. And also people need to be more aware of the refer distance for loading chunks, I've talked to a couple people and myself who had multiple issues before becuase they didn't realise, I had to redo my entire cactus farm for this reason, it was too far away and I had no idea
     
  10. Calidre
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    Calidre Experienced Member

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    Alright let me explain it this way (These numbers are not real just an example)

    Let`s say a crop hopper picks up 0.5 pumpkins per second for 1 chunk layer. If you had another layer in a separate chunk that`s another 0.5 per second making your farm work at an average of 1.0 per second. If by your logic I should add 1 layer to the original chunk, this would make it 1.0 in the original. Since the crop hopper has a max of 3 per second it would only take 6 layers to reach that maximum (Again this is not a real number just an example).

    If I were to make 25 single chunk layers, yes that would make my farm 25x the speed of 1 layer. But as soon as you add another layer to a chunk, it does not double. The crop hopper was designed to force you to use a lot of dirt to make money because if you made all layers add the same amount of production in one chunk, players farms would be severely decreased in size and still create the same amount of income they do now which would cause an overflow of cash into the economy and make the dollar useless.

    This graph (The graph itself doesn`t relate to the farm just only focus on the line itself) provides a good example of the production rate of the farm. To have the most efficient farm you would start by making 25 chunks with 1 layer each as a player can only load a 5x5 chunk area. So 25 layers in 25 chunks will be faster than 25 in 1 to start. But after you start adding more layers to each chunk, the average production per chunk will decrease with every layer you add. So 25 single layer chunks will create more pumpkins than 1 chunk and 25 layers, but if you are adding mor than 25 layers they will even out into each other


    The top of the line would represent production for 25 single layer chunks and the production per chunk added would drop significantly like the line does for every layer you add after the first original layer you started with
    [​IMG]

    The other issue is storage. If you are dealing with less than 25 chunks, than storage becomes another issue anyways. Since a fully expanded 199x199 has a max of 96 hoppers, you can only have 3-4 hoppers per chunk if you have 25 chunks with 1 layer each. Whereas if you have only a few chunks you can have between 1-50 or more hoppers per chunk allowing way more storage. There`s benefits to having more chunks or more in one chunk. You will get more production with single layers but you will be selling pumpkins way more often. If you make multiple layers per chunk you won`t be selling as often, but your production will be lower.

    I`m going to state this again VERY clearly. After the 25 single layers in each chunk, both ways of adding layers will slowly start to even out with every layer you add.
     
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  11. MorayEel
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    MorayEel Active Member Premium

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    The odds of more than 3 pumpkins growing in a single chunk in one second in a small farm are quite low. I doubt that would amount to 25 double chests as you claim.
     
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  12. Moee
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    Moee Well-Known Member

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    Support, but it needs to be 180 per minute (3/second*60=180).


    As a sidenote, please format your post; it was very confusing to read and your math was hard to follow.

    Here is my math:

    A pumpkin plant grows (on average) once every 17749.29 ticks.

    17749.29/15 (the servers average tps) = 1183.3 seconds to grow per pumpkin (19.7 minutes).

    assuming 128 pumpkins per layer, that's 1 growth on average per 9.245 seconds per layer per chunk.

    With 10 layers, that's one every second on average.
    Double the growth rate and you still have another 50% again to go before you hit the 3/second mark. This means that your chances of having a crop be deleted with 10 layers is quite low.
    After 10 layers, the price of a cropper becomes negligible (50k vs 2 mil for a 10 layer farm).
    This means that it should be easy to spread out your layers after that to minimize your chances of having crop growth be deleted.

    However, this suggestion would remove randomness from farms, making it easier to max out production without relying on the random tick gods to grant you even luck.

    Neutral. this is not necessary nor would it improve QoL besides improving your profits by ~1%
    For my suggestion on improvements to croppers, check this thread out.
     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2021

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